Thoughts on frequent feeding

[zachvanslyke]

I'm 38 years old and have been lifting weights consistently for 25 years. Along the way, I've experimented with a seemingly infinite variety of training and nutrition philosophies.

What I am about to say may seem like heresy to some, and let me also say that I realize that my own experiences and opinions are of course no more or no less valid than anyone else. This is just based on my own personal experiences, distilled from years of my own trial and error, research, finding out what works and what doesn't, etc- just for my own life and my own body.

So, here goes. I think that the generic frequent feeding system of eating, ie the deal where one eats every 2 to 4 hours, x grams of protein and with or without healthy carbs and fats, etc, in order to "prevent starvation mode," etc, etc- is pretty much nonsense.
Second disclaimer- I'm not about to claim that frequent feeding CANNOT be effective for some- because it can, and I have done it myself and made gains in strength and size. My main problems with it are that I don't think it is really that natural from a biological, evolutionary standpoint, and also that it can be a a big effin pain from a day-to-day standpoint. Tupperware, anyone?

Here's my thing. Homo sapiens has been around for around 150 to 200,000 years. We were hunter-gatherers until rudimentary farming came about some 10,000 years ago. McCormick's reaper was circa mid 19th century, modern farming didn't come about till even later after that. Electric fridges came about in the 1920's. If you consider the entire length of time our species has been around and liken it to a 24 hour day, we have been doing basic farming for around an hour or so, "modern" farming for only one minute or two, and have used fridges for 45 seconds.

Something tells me that we're not exactly designed to wake up and immediately have 6 eggs, turkey bacon, a whey shake, and whole wheat toast. Then two hours later have a spinach salad with 4 ounces of chicken breast, ad nauseum. Instead, I think we were made to maybe wake up and have to gather and hunt- basically, work- for our food. In modern terms, this maybe means waking up and have a coffee or tea and drinking some water, then exercising. Eat a simple orange. Have a handful of almonds a little later. Have an egg or two still later. Eat a couple carrots and keep drinking water. Lift weights or do whatever it is you do. At night, have the "kill"- red meat, fish, or chicken, massive salad, avocado, oats, breads, fruit with honey, or whatever whole foods are on hand.

I don't think eating 5, 6, 7 complete meals a day is what "nature" has set us up to do. It seems pretty unnatural to me as of late, actually. I've been doing a form of the "caveman" or "warrior" diet type of deal the last few years, sort of like I described above, and feel SO much healthier and better, plus a ton leaner and more energetic as well. It's a simple thing- I'll eat fruits, nuts, veggies, and maybe just a hint of protein lightly throughout the day, and eat a big substantial meal at night with meats, grains, veggies, the works. Granted, I'm not as big and strong as when I did the frequent feeding deal- but I also don't have gas 24 hours a day and have to go through all the bs that goes along with frequent feeding.

I'm not trying to plug anything- I know it might sound like I am- instead I'm just trying to help out and soothe certain people that may be under the delusion that all hell is gonna break loose if they don't frequent feed. This coming from a guy who has done his time with frequent feeding slave thing and the "big" weights in the gym (at least for me, they were haha). I'm relatively small-boned and never got incredibly strong- 305 was my best bench (fell short of the 3 wheels per side, damn it, and since my shoulders are trashed form years of pushing straight bars, I'll never get there, cuz I am never touching straight bars again, but oh well, I digress), got that 305 at two different points after doing powerlifting strength cycles, but I usually stayed around 285 max bench and 225 for around 8 give or take, I max deadlifted 450, squatted 345 ATG and 235 10X10 ATG with strict 2 min rest between sets- pretty mediocre really- esp since I usually weighed around 190 to 200 when I was at that strength level, with prob around 15% bodyfat or so. My genetics sucked for getting enormously big, truth be known. I'm actually more genetically set up to weight the buck 65 I weigh now with a leaner 8 percent bodyfat give or take.

For all those out there who hate frequent feeding, my advice is just to quit doing it, it's not worth it. You're not gonna starve if you don't have 30 grams of protein upon waking. Enjoy life. Grab a piece of fruit and head to work. Don't be a slave to the schedule. Eat good at night. Eat and train within your own confines. Sure, you may lose out in some ways, but you'll also gain tremendously in several other ways.

[scottgaran]

Hey Zach, I think your own writings on our genetics produced an answer you may not have thought of. We are not suppossed to eat 6-7 full meals a day, because genetically out bodies are not suppossed to hold as much muscle as most athletic type people do. For me I have to eat the 6 big meals to maintain my size. If I didn't, I would lose a lot of muscle I worked for. No one forces peopole to eat the way you described, you just need to do it if you want to carry a lot of muscle.

Scott

[zachvanslyke]

Scott- agree with most of what you wrote. Gaining lots of strength and size can be a lot of fun and also be very rewarding in some ways, and frequent feeding is probably the best nutritional approach to accomplish it. I did it myself for several years. Ego played a primary role with it. In hindsight, I don't think it's good for the body. It promotes sort of an artificial, unnatural state of physicality. Eating tons of calories every day via multiple feedings and lifting heavy is extremely tough on the body. I think a mix of cardio, lighter and varied strength training, and a more natural, whole foods diet is infinitely better for anyone's overall health. Each is on our own path; I would have argued the opposite point 10 or 15 years ago. Today, I'd rather have healthy joints, be light on my feet, and have decent functional strength levels along with low bodyfat, versus being 40 to 60 lbs heavier, lifting bigger weights, and eating all the time. I'd venture to say that a lot of ex bodybuilders, football players, powerlifters, ad nauseum would support the aforementioned conjecture as well. There is no way in h@ll I would put my body through what I put it through if I had to do it all over again- I would have thrown the ego in the trash where it belongs:) Just my 2 cents

[zachvanslyke]

Lesplease- good stuff. Walker is a genetic freak, a definite outlier!

[ArkansasRob]

Dude. Humans adapt. You notice the life expectancy dramatically has increased since modern science. The average size of humans has increased with the agricultural revolution and modern medicine. Scheduling eating is based on centuries of studies over the human body and metabolism. Some dude didn't just make it up in his garage in the 40's.

[zachvanslyke]

Arkansasrob- Modern medicine has certainly increased life span, a given. And sure, humans adapt- but if you are referring to natural selection and/or descent with modification, such adaptations take several handfuls of millennium to occur- not just a few hundred years. Let me repeat, our species hunted/gathered for 150,000 to 200,000 years, perhaps longer. Crude transitions from hunter/gathering to extremely rudimentary farming in villages was only 5,000 to 10,000 years ago. The plow and reaper showed up around 160 years ago, the refrigerator only 80 years ago. In that long 150,000 plus years of hunting/gathering, our species "adapted" to a tougher lifestyle and cruder diet than you or I could ever fathom. Working. Traveling. Hunting. Maybe just eating the same food repetitively for days on end because nothing else was available. Starving at times, going for hours and days without food. They had to work their butts off to merely survive. Humans today are not biologically accustomed to grabbing readily available food out of the fridge and cupboards and having 5 to 8 complete meals per day without a second thought. Talk to me in the year 50,000 or so and maybe we'll revisit the topic.
People around Japan eat little portions of rice, veggies, fish, and other simple foods, and take in very modest amounts of daily calories. They also boast the world's highest lifespan. The average lifespan of an NFL player is 53, and don't try to blame it all on the hits they take and the drugs. Much of the blame has to go to scheduled force feeding and way the heck too many calories and protein.
My main argument isn't really against frequent feeding in the sense that eating often isn't always bad, especially if one is eating small, token amounts of healthy whole foods. Simple fact is that I'll never be convinced that eating 5 to 8 thousand calories a day, in the form of 5 to 8 complete meals, with 1.5 to 2 grams of protein per pound bodyweight and all that jazz, is good for anybody; it seems very unhealthy, excessive, and simply not good to do. But hey, just another broscientist here, take it with a grain of salt

[zachvanslyke]

"Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of hunter-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9" for men, 5' 5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height crashed, and by 3000 B.C. had reached a low of only 5' 3" for men, 5' for women."

http://www.mesacc.edu/dept/d10/asb/life ... stake.html

http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Health ... gatherers/

[zachvanslyke]

I think it is very interesting to note that the hunter gatherers of ancient times were of the same average height that people are today... yet they didn't have any access to modern conveniences, e.g., hospitals, pre/post natal care, electricity, municipal sewer/water treatment plants, ad infinitum- let alone central heat and air. Or a huge refrigerator:)

[ArkansasRob]

im just saying, your not going to look good if your eating 2 meals a day...you enzymes will turn all of your carbs into fat. But yeah Americans are getting too fat...Have you done any research on the human body and geology...I was wandering if my ancestry was from Norway, should I be eating what norwegians eat?

[zachvanslyke]

Arkansas- It's not about eating two lone meals a day. It's about eating very small amounts of whole foods throughout the day and a single large meal at night. Oranges. Raw Almonds. Sunflower seeds. Water. Greens. Yogurt. Then a big meal at night. Tons of people do it, including myself, and are extremely lean and muscular. Hunter gatherer diet is NOT for somebody trying to gain strength and size, as I said earlier. It is for people that want to get lean, strong, and healthy, and put their bodies in a more natural state

[Boss Man]

I believe however that one key reason for Japanese longevity is because they don't smoke.

To me the feeding thing isn't an issue. I prescribe it here as opposed to 3 bulky meals a day like some people are used to and do it myself as it feels normal and right for me personally.

What you could argue though is not that humans were not predisposed to eat 6 Eggs, Bacon etc etc, it's because they couldn't.

The Greeks and Romans probably first entertained the notion of the "feast", but no doubt the most high ranking and richest, feasted perhaps on a daily basis, though not necessarily on things all of which would please or interest the modern diner, because some of it was parts of animal heads or things made from organs or strange plants.

So history cultivated the notion of big meals, possibly before the recording of time actually began.

Humankind does however have the capacity to consume and digest frequent caloric intake, save for some exceptions like people with Gastroparesis for example, but for many people looking to add mass or lose weight, I believe it is a methodology that provides enough nutrients, to assist the desired goal when applied sensibly.

It isn't a one size fits all thing, nor an exacting science, because people are different the world over and don't have a near identical genetic blueprint, right across the board, but for me, I believe it is a most worthy ideology to live by.

As a for instance, since you've altered what you did, have you had things like a T or Z score for Bones perhaps, or a Cholesterol and Triglycerides test, to ascertain if your dietary changes have left you with any problems?

As cutting back to some extent would reduce micronutrient intake and possibly therefore elevate things, like Cholesterol levels and bone thinning potential.

[zachvanslyke]

Boss- yes, "sensibly" is the key word.

I haven't had any physical work ups regarding cholesterol or bone density, although that is probably a good thought. My diet consists primarily of lots of fruits, veggies, nuts, seeds, some grains, meats, dairy, whey powder, flax and fish oils, plus a multi for extra insurance. Like I said earlier, "My main argument isn't really against frequent feeding in the sense that eating often isn't always bad, especially if one is eating small, token amounts of healthy whole foods. Simple fact is that I'll never be convinced that eating 5 to 8 thousand calories a day, in the form of 5 to 8 complete meals, with 1.5 to 2 grams of protein per pound bodyweight and all that jazz, is good for anybody."

I also happen to believe that going without eating anything whatsoever for 4 to 6 or even 8 hours on occasion, while just drinking plain old water, is a natural, healthy thing to do-I usually do that at least every other day. But that is just me. I've read tons of stuff about "starvation mode" and storing fat when faced with "impending starvation" and all that when one is fasting. Tell that to my abs lol. I'm 5'11 and weight 165, with probably around 8 percent bodyfat. My arms are over 15" cold and near 16" after a workout, and my waist measures 30" at the navel. Not incredibly poor figures for a 38 year old.

I used to weigh 200 and have 15 to 20 percent bodyfat when I ate 300 grams of protein a day and tons of calories in the form of around 6 complete meals, and the waist was 36 to 38 around the navel, depending on the season. But I will say the arms were nearly 18" then, and that was nice:)

The last few years I've taken in anywhere from roughly 2000 to maybe 3,500 thousand calories a day, depending on how active I am and accounting for several other factors. I might scrounge 500 to 1000 calories off and on through the day, and eat another 1000 to 2500 at night at one shot- a real free-for-all meal.

Was I taking in TOO many calories before on the frequent feed deal, and could I find a middle ground? Perhaps. But this way of eating is so much freakin easier and it just simply feels better. Plus I happen to despise carrying around coolers full of perishable food in tupperware. And I'm completely burned out on bars and the like. I'd rather just grab an orange, or some raw almonds, and/or some seeds, and be on my way for the day.

I also affirm that everyone is different and gray area abounds, for sure. I simply feel better doing this kind of diet; it seems inherently more organic and natural

[zachvanslyke]

Boss- about the Japanese and smoking- several studies have them ranked fairly high on the list from a world-wide standpoint. One such link:

http://lungcancer.about.com/od/causesof ... aradox.htm

Turns out they smoke their fare share and then some, yet still have the highest longevity on the planet.

I will concede that diet is not the only factor involved, however.

[Boss Man]

I thought they didn't smoke. I now think I might have been mistaking them for another countries inhabitants.

[Athene]

I like this thread - I used to feel like such a slave to nutrition in the past when I was eating 6 times per day, but now I try to follow the 'Paleo' principles and eat a small breakfast, larger lunch, small dinner, and little snacks of some nuts or fruit, and I feel much better.

A book I have mentioned in other threads, Pollan's In Defense of Food, also talks about how eating fewer calories is better for longevity, and how eating more plants and less meat is better for a lot of things - your health, your body composition, your wallet, the environment, and your local economy. I don't have an agenda here either, it's just my experience and my two cents.